Potluck? Cashing in on medical marijuana markets with James Helliwell

Episode 2: Potluck? Cashing in on medical marijuana markets with James Helliwell

James Helliwell: The biggest opportunity is in optimism right now long-term, because the market rewards optimism over the long run, and it's very easy to get I think cynical, to be cynical and be pessimistic, to be sceptical, and you know what, I think over the long run the biggest opportunity right now, particularly as a millennial, is to be optimistic.

Michael McCarthy: From CMC Markets, this is The Artful Trader.

Michael McCarthy: Hello and welcome to The Artful Trader. I'm Michael McCarthy the Chief Market Strategist at CMC Markets Asia Pacific. Each episode, we'll hear the highs and lows from the industry's experts and hear their journey to mastering the art of the financial markets. Today we meet James Helliwell a savvy trader whose $250 million profit from the medical marijuana business was more than just pot luck. How hard is it to spot the next big investment opportunity, the next dot-com, the next Bitcoin, the next invention. On the flip side, how do you avoid groupthink… and stop yourself blindly chasing the next shiny new thing along with everyone else? It's an art form that James Helliwell has embraced with the vision and rigor of all early adopters. He was one of the first to see the potential and the pitfalls of Bitcoin. He invested early in medical marijuana, making a huge profit by backing the hardware around this emerging industry. As chief investment strategist at the Lex van Dam Trading Academy, James Helliwell has cemented himself as a master trader in markets, working across multiple asset classes with some of Europe's leading hedge funds and investment banks. With James's fresh approach and traditional expertise, we're going to learn how to weed out the bad investments from your portfolio and get an insight on how to spot the next big thing. James Helliwell is speaking to The Artful Trader from the city of London.

Michael McCarthy: James, how did you get into trading?

James Helliwell: Sure. I think one of my earliest memories of basically trading or doing anything financially related was counting the coins in my piggy bank and my sister, my younger sister also had one, I must've been, I don't know, five, six years old or something like that. And we used to tip out our piggy banks and see who had the most money, but we would get into a game where I would basically as the older brother manipulate her into believing that the bigger the coin, the greater the value. So we'd be swapping like the old two pence for 20 pence’s and things like that, and that sort of thing. That was my first foray into currency trading was really taken advantage of my younger sister with swapping big coins for small ones. I remember one of the earliest things when people are asking you what do you want to be when you grow older? I think after the usual sort of astronauts or firemen phase, I think I was 12 or 13, I'd just seen the film Trading Places, so I saw that and I remember just saying to my mum, I'm like 12, 'I'm going to be a stockbroker. I'm going to work in Canary Wharf in London', and I didn't really understand what they did at that point other than make money, but having seen a few films I began to get into that. So I think from a young age I had these various other ventures as well on the side. I loved working during school, during studies, had various paper rounds, number of jobs, but I also traded things like football boots or soccer cleats as you might know them over there. I'd buy them used or pre-owned on eBay or marketplaces, do them up, flip them or play in them for school and the school team, clean them up and then flip them on for a profit. And I always had the smartest or the newest boots even though I was on the bench a lot of the time for the school team, but I was the guy who was just continually buying something cheap, doing it up and then reselling it high and just doing it continuously. So I think I had this tendency in me from a young age, but in terms of then getting into my profession, into my career in later life, as I say, I think a lot of it when it comes to trading is personality based. So I don't think it's that strange that I found myself in this sort of environment. So it was during university, I made the right decision I feel to go into that. Studied economics, studied the world of finance as well, learned about the stock market and then yeah, once I got my opportunity I got straight into Bloomberg as a graduate, great training program, internationally and in London, teach you about each asset class, all the various markets as well as how to use the Bloomberg terminal, an amazing resource, and that's where I really got into the community of trading. And I reached out early in my career to Lex van Dam, the business partner of mine now, who I've known for a number of years. He's basically been a mentor to me throughout my career. He's a phenomenal investor, phenomenal well-regarded trader as well. It's been a phenomenal learning experience.

Michael McCarthy: Well, James it's been quite a journey, but as we do with all of the traders we speak to, I'd like to go back a little here. What are the basics you'd advise traders who are just starting out?

James Helliwell: So we teach a number of things at the academy of ours, at the Lex van Dam Trading Academy, where we basically teach and train through our coaching programs, people who are just starting out and also those who are a bit more experienced in the world of trading. But in terms of the specifics, I think much of trading is based around your psychology and your temperaments. So a lot of it is personality based and those sorts of things can be, they can be moulded and mentored, but they can't really be taught. So you do have to have the right sort of personality and mindset in order to stand a chance of succeeding in trading. However, the good news is that whilst that's kind of innate, it can be shaped to an extent, but it's kind of innate to begin with, you don't have to have specific experience or expertise in say mathematics or science or anything like that. I didn't come from that sort of background myself, and many of the best traders over history, we look at the likes of Paul Tudor Jones or Richard Dennis with the turtle traders, another experiment which actually inspired the Million Dollar Traders TV series that Lex produced on the BBC. You look at these things and you could teach people the same rules, but get very different outcomes on the basis of personality and ultimately the temperament of people. So you need to absolutely have a process and to have rules and that's what we aim to deliver at the academy, that's what we teach, but a lot of it will come down to your temperament and to your motivation ultimately for trading and why you're in it. If you're in it just to make money, you might make a lot of money quickly, but the reality is that you're unlikely to stick with it for long-term and see through the inevitable setbacks that you'll encounter and you could blow up your account in the process, which of course is the number one thing to avoid doing. So when you're starting out patience as well is probably the key ingredient and perseverance. It's like anything, anybody who's really successful, regardless of what they do, if it's a sportsman, an athlete whatever, it takes time, it takes experience, it requires patience and it requires dedication and discipline. You can't just come into this and be an overnight superstar and if you are, you'll probably be at the bottom of the pile, the day after. No magic bullet but a lot of it is process and discipline based. It would apply to any industry, any pursuit.

Michael McCarthy: Yeah, I echo that. One of the key things we look for in any potential young traders is determination.

James Helliwell: Yeah, exactly. You must have that, it's key.

Michael McCarthy: Now, James, as you know when traders get together, they love to swap war stories. So I'd like to ask you, what was your best or most memorable trade?

James Helliwell: BP after the Macondo oil disaster, which obviously on a human and environmental level was, it was terrible, but it was quite early into my career and I remember taking a significant personal position in that stock in the aftermath. And I think that validated what I was beginning to understand about how psychologically or emotionally driven the market is and how, just like in life, to be philosophical for a moment, which often doesn't pay to be in trading, things are rarely as bad as you think they're going to be and they rarely workout as good as you think they're going to be. So often after something terrible has happened, the price has reacted already, it's reacted to that a lot, it's probably overshot. So when things are all over the front pages and on the 10:00 news in the UK, by the time it's hit the headlines there, it's often time to do the opposite. It's often an indication that the worst is over or the best is over if its positive news and it's time to start thinking about doing the opposite. So definitely the BP recovery because it was early on in my career, sticks out as one of the most memorable ones. I've made quicker money and faster money, but for me that's not satisfying because it's often, I think you've got to have humility and you've got to understand that you cannot control the market. It doesn't care or doesn't know whether you've got position, it doesn't care certainly, so yeah, if you make quick money, it was just lucky. Equally if you lose money fast and you did follow the right process, that was just unlucky. You've just got to cut the trade and move on.

Michael McCarthy: Well, I'm sorry James, but we don't let anyone off the hook here. Your most painful trade?

James Helliwell: This is the usual deep inhale everybody does when they're asked this question. The thing is there are so many to choose from.

Michael McCarthy: Feel free to suck your teeth.

James Helliwell: There were a few recently, I mean, it could be as recent as this month. Not terrible trades, but just where you perhaps momentarily lacked discipline or you've been impulsive, more impulsive than you would usually. But there were a couple recently which I've chased and just to my frustration, Fever Tree Tonic Water manufacturer in the UK, that was a very frustrating one. Phenomenal results. Gucci as well, so Kering which owns the Gucci brand, again reported about two or three weeks ago really didn't go so well. Gapped up… great, great results, but the market still having gapped up… sold off. I lacked patience; I was emotionally attached to those positions I think, to those companies, that's another danger in trading. It basically, it will catch you out, the market is so clever and so sophisticated, if you make a mistake it will punish you. So yeah, with experience you begin to notice these patterns, and hopefully prevent yourself making a mistake ahead of time. But yeah, there were tons of them and anybody who claims that they don't have losses or they haven't had bad experiences is not showing you the full picture, to put it politely.

Michael McCarthy: I'd absolutely echo that. I've never met a successful honest trader who doesn't own up to having taken losses, it's part of trading. But it is an important part in how you handle them is important. We've all made the mistake of falling in love with positions. What does it feel like when the market punishes your love?

James Helliwell: It reminds me how foolish you are and how correct the market is. The market is never wrong. The market is never wrong and I am often wrong, but the ability and the skill in my career is to react quickly when I'm wrong. So first of all, be able to recognise it, and as soon as I recognised it, be quick to act, so not suffer sort of paralysis in front of the screen, rabbit in the headlights kind of thing, but it's to react. It's not, the most dangerous thing you can do is be in denial when you have a position on that's going against you. Because you've recognise that you're wrong, or you think you're wrong, so you've recognised it, but you fail to act and particularly if you're running a loss already and it's probably a big loss if you haven't stopped yourself out as well, that's a recipe for disaster and that's how accounts are blown up. You've always got to have that humility because the market is never wrong and it's got a paddle big enough to crack any of us on the backside.

Michael McCarthy: Thank you. More from James Helliwell in a moment. This is The Artful Trader, uncovering the highs and the lows to mastering the art of the financial markets. In our first series, we met Raoul Pal. He's one of the most successful global macro traders ever. So make sure you catch series one of The Artful Trader as we go around the world in 80 trades. Raoul describes why macro is so thrilling. Raoul Pal: It is like the world's most beautiful puzzle that never gets solved and the history of economies is cyclical. Patterns repeat and things repeat, and people basically follow the same behaviour patterns time and time and time again. So if you understand the past, you have a better understanding of the future.

Michael McCarthy: While you're there, you can also get a limited time offer from CMC Markets. Here's how? Now back to my chat with James Helliwell in the city of London. James, speaking of good trades, when did you first recognise the global economic potential of medical marijuana?

James Helliwell: I'd heard about the industry potential in '14, '15 along with many other things like Cryptocurrencies, which is the Blockchain technologies, which is a very interesting space as well, but yeah, it was basically 2016, very early 2016.

Michael McCarthy: And you took an interesting approach. I mean you looked at the changing landscape, you identified some key factors, for example, the number of licenses issued in a particular area, and then you ended up with an investment opportunity in the hardware that actually smokes the marijuana, is that right?

James Helliwell: Yeah, that's right. It's a really interesting thing. So we approached it first of all, from the hardware side of things. So as a consumer product company essentially not involved in the production or cultivation of the crop in any of its forms. So we began to get an understanding of user preferences and I think most importantly from that, how attitudes and adoption, how attitudes were changing, in terms of tolerance or acceptance of cannabis for recreational purposes and also for medical usage. So we looked at it from that standpoint and began to get a feel for the potential size of the industry, which according to some research which was produced by Cohen & Co at the time, they reckon that it could become like a $50 billion industry by 2026. So in 8 years it could go from, I think currently for vaporizers it's about 4 billion or so, it could basically go up 10 fold, more than 10 fold in the next 8 years. That's a huge number. We then looked at what was going on around the world in terms of the political landscape, which is of course the most important thing… regulations. When we mentioned attitudes were changing, it's all well and good consumer attitudes changing, but if they're still not allowed to buy it legally, then it's a nonstarter. From the perspective of the vaporiser manufacturer, I think the focus there is on medical application more than recreational, but when you begin to look at the scope for recreational usage it's also huge. But the most important driver of this is certainly regulations. So it's politics, which we are seeing shifts around the world, the UK… based, a notable example in June where there was a young child who had come over from the US, where it sourced on the west coast some CBDs, cannabinoid oil, to help with his seizures which he was getting, he basically had eight weeks supply of the medication, but that was seized initially by the UK Customs or by the guys that import. But that was overruled like a week later when the parents appealed and it went to parliament and the Home Secretary, Sajid Javid overruled it and granted him access to this medication, which I think on a human level is absolutely the right thing to do. But there are more and more cases of this now, particularly in the UK government, but around the world where things are becoming more relaxed, particularly on the medical side, but what's holding that back is really the lack of research that's gone on in that space. So in order for clinicians or doctors basically to prescribe this stuff, they need to be educated as much as anything, but they also need to have access to research into clinical trials. And until cannabis is basically de-scheduled, it's unlikely in the US for example, as the leading nation of this, it's unlikely that there's going to be access or there's going to be that research produced which enables the medical industry to begin prescribing it more freely. So there needs to be shifts in red tape in order to really open up this market.

Michael McCarthy: James, can you tell us a little more about your strategy in which you looked at the US states that issued only limited license to grow marijuana for recreational use. Why did you start looking there?

James Helliwell: So in the likes of Colorado in the US, there was something like 1400 producers, or licensed growers for a population of I think 5 million or something like that.

Michael McCarthy: This is for recreational use, not medical use?

James Helliwell: Yeah, exactly. So it's just basically saturated. Every man and his dog has started growing cannabis in Colorado to try and sell. So there's an oversupply there. But the difference is in some of these limited licensed states including the likes of New York and Florida, so major states in the US, a limited license basically means that only say a handful of these licenses will be issued, say four or five or something for a state. Some of these licenses are trading for like $40 million or something each before the company has even, it's pre-revenue, before it's even started doing business or growing, that's how in demand they are, how valuable they are as assets and that's why you should be looking at these companies that hold them in my opinion. But in a limited license state there might be only 1 million people for every one licensed operator rather than 1400 licenses per 5 million population. So clearly when these licenses are granted and when these states become federally legal, then those guys have got basically an oligopoly or something of a monopoly in terms of production and supply in those states. And that's going to be really, really valuable to those companies. So you need to look at companies I think with these limited licenses. There's one case which we're working on at the moment, which we can't disclose because it's a private company that we're looking at, which basically has 10 out of it's 12 licenses are in these major limited licensed states. But I'd be looking for similar companies that have these because when this opens, when the floodgates open, it's going to be at the end of prohibition, and that's the so-called green rush, which is taking place, you know, named after the gold rush of mining all those years ago. The most important thing is to look for those licenses, but also avoid the so-called commoditization of growing. When prohibition ended in, I think it was 1933 in the US, buying like a hop producer to make alcohol or beer just was not the right move. You weren't going to get rich doing that. It was about trying to invest in the distribution and the brands which control the distribution around the world, not just the people who are basically producing the commodities. And that's the reason why we were looking at the hardware element initially and not being involved in sort of the growing the flower.

Michael McCarthy: Well, you've clearly put a lot of work into it and you're highly motivated. What is it that makes it work for you? Is it the thrill of the chase or finding something new?

James Helliwell: Yeah, it certainly is. That's what keeps you fresh I think is always learning something new and facing new challenges. So it was a completely new industry. I was, I wouldn't say out of my depth approaching it, but I think we all have these human fears where we think, God, I know nothing about this industry really, and particularly when it's something which is a bit more abstract and let's be honest, it has something of a taboo still attached to it, although those attitudes are changing. When I go home and tell my friends or family whatever that or people on most interviews apart from this wonderful broadcast that, you know, I'm working with a company which is involved in weed, they're like, they think like by some stoners or something like that, there's all these connotations which are conjured up. But when you find yourself outside of your comfort zone, you learn something, it becomes fascinating and these opportunities open up to you. I'm now shareholder in that company and it's a project which I think I'll be really involved in for the next 10 years or so. And looking around elsewhere in the space, there are a ton of other opportunities which anybody can be looking at.

Michael McCarthy: Well, what would you recommend for our listeners who are interested in investing in this area?

James Helliwell: Okay, what I'd recommend is first of all, avoiding the many mistakes that you can make trying to invest in this sector and then work back from there. So I can tell you what not to do. What you shouldn't do is just go on and buy any stock listed on the Canadian Stock Exchange, The Toronto Stock Exchange, any of those hot pot stocks that have gone up a lot or have shown a big spike, but you know nothing about, that's the first thing. So a lot of these names are very, very volatile because they're highly speculative. Highly speculative is basically a professional term for meaning that there's no real fundamentals or quality management behind the company. So it is just a raffle ticket or lottery ticket. So that's the first thing, you don't just go buying anything willy-nilly thinking that just because it's in a hot sector, you're basically guaranteed to make money buying it. So where would I look? Well first of all, I refer back to looking at, for example, companies which hold limited licenses. That's really important. I think that's key. That is an operational advantage and a durable moat if you want to quote Warren Buffett, Ben Graham, that have that advantage as an asset basically, an intangible asset over other businesses, is a scarce commodity, but you also need to be aware of valuation. So even if you find some quality companies, even if you're looking at larger, more established ones, but you look at the valuations, there's still an awful lot of optimism baked into that price. So regardless of which stock you're picking, just by investing in that sector, valuations are extremely high and most of these companies are highly speculative, and then within that many of them have unproven businesses and often less than stellar management or inexperienced management teams. So there are a lot of ways to go wrong. I think in many other industries that you might be investing in, the easiest thing for somebody to do, which I think is still effective, is to look at buying a sector ETF. So an Exchange Traded Fund which tracks a basket of the stock, so whilst it's kind of counterintuitive to my point where I said you need to be selective, and that as professionals is what we're paid to do, to be selective rather than just buy a sector or an index. I think as an individual, if you realize that it's just too complicated, then at least with an ETF, an Exchange Traded Fund, whilst it is investing in a basket of these companies, it at least spreads your risk across and without incurring lots of dealing charges for owning 10, 20 businesses which might be listed on different exchanges and all the rest, it's just basically an easier way to gain exposure to the thing, to the industry. And a lot of these Exchange Traded Funds on the indices will be cap weighted or capitalisation weighted, meaning that the larger companies, so the more established ones typically, have a larger weighting in that ETF. So again, you spread your risk, but it's more concentrated amongst the more established firms. ETFs are a good way of diversifying if you're not confident in picking which stocks are likely to succeed, and in this case, I think it's more about survival rather than which stocks are going to make more money, it's more a case of avoiding the ones which are likely to go bankrupt. Or if you're really, really into the sector and you have some expertise, look at, if you're going to pick single stocks, look at the leading or established names, but have a very, very long, be honest with yourself, and have a long holding period because there's significant volatility which you're going to have to withstand in order to hopefully realize the potential of the industry. So never trade with more money than you can afford to lose. That's rule number one, regardless of what you're doing. And particularly here where it's a highly speculative position.

Michael McCarthy: Okay, well, marijuana and Blockchain based currencies operate in legally grey areas and there are potentially regulatory challenges. What were you advising your investors early on with Cryptocurrencies?

James Helliwell: Yeah, so this was a really, another really interesting one. And I had followed the industry for probably two or three years very closely. It was very clear that speculation had reached mania, the stage of mania, and it was never going last. But a lot of money had been made and then a lot of money was lost in the meantime, so hopefully people enjoyed the ride. But what I was advising around that time was basically, and this is on the basis of what I was doing myself in my personal trading, was that, look, you need to be looking at the underlying technology. So the Blockchain as a long-term investment scene. These Cryptocurrencies are just hype, which has been picked up in the media in the short term. There's like a veneer, it's not really the underlying proposition, it's just one of the things that can be done with Blockchain, but that's what the public, or what appealed to the public and what drew people in. So I advised people to, okay, not be dour, like most people say, oh, it's a bubble, it's a bubble, avoid it, avoid it. You can make lots of money in a bubble, but you need to know where you're going to get out. And again, coming down to experience, it's often very difficult to stick to your guns and actually get out on time, because everybody thinks, I'll be the first guy to get out, I'll be fine. I'm going to buy, yeah, I'll be the first to get out, I'll be the smart one. You're never the smart one or the smartest one. You often the dumb one when you think that. So it was, look if you're going to be involved in it as many people were, make the most of it, but know that it will not last forever. This will not last forever in Cryptocurrencies. As soon as you get that first hint or that first worry, that gut feel that it might be over, get out straight away and don't return to it until the dust has settled. So I was advising, look, participate, but for sure this isn't the real investment case, Blockchain, beneath it is what will last, and this is just temporary. So make your money, take profits and don't stay too long, which is easier said than done.

Michael McCarthy: Well, you're echoing something that I think I first heard in '99 as the tech boom was taking off and a very senior stockbroker said to me, 'sure the fools are dancing, but the even bigger falls are sitting on the sidelines'.

James Helliwell: So true, so true.

Michael McCarthy: But what is it that makes you so sure the Cryptocurrencies aren't going to survive?

James Helliwell: There are a number of reasons for it. I think first of all, the validations. There's a proof of concept. I believe that Cryptocurrency, as we refer to it, or as it's commonly known, has been validated as a proof of concept. As a digital currency I do believe that the world is moving towards digitisation anyway of currencies, of the fiat monetary system. Do I believe in decentralisation? I think it's a nice idea, but Cryptocurrency is predicated on that. It's never going to happen for as long as governments are in control, which will be forever. That's never going to happen. They're never going to allow that. What they'll do, and I think we've seen, they would look to implement in the future a digital currency, but it will be a digital currency of their own, it will be the digital euro, digital pound, digital Aussie dollar, or a global digital currency, I don't think it will ever be decentralized. And that was basically the whole premise of Cryptocurrencies, the investment rationale behind them before everybody just got caught up in the mania. Greed basically, the boar market of making money, making money, making money, easy money. It's been fun. It's been a great proof of concept, I'm not against Cryptocurrencies, you know, I support the idea, but the reality is very different I think. Yeah, it's over, as we know them anyway. As the public know them, Cryptocurrencies are over. Yeah.

Michael McCarthy: Now James, as a British resident, I have to ask you at least one question about the ongoing challenges and opportunities that Brexit offers. Has it changed your trading or will it change your trading in the future?

James Helliwell: Yeah, it has done so. First of all, Brexit created a number of opportunities and it was the most profitable period in memory, in recent memory around June time and July, following the referendum on the 23rd I think it was June 2016. So the process is obviously ongoing. It's created a number of opportunities along the way because simply it's created volatility, stuff has moved about a lot as you can see or as is evident in the currency, in sterling, it's created a lot of inflation as well with the devaluation of the currency. So that's now creating opportunities in sectors where margins may be under greater pressure. So you're looking at single stocks, so there are opportunities there. I think what's clear is that nothing is clear. So what's clear is that there is uncertainty still and the narrative changes from day to day here. So really you've just got to take things with a pinch of salt, but more broadly for, as I say, returning to the initial point of around what's the big outlook for the industry, from a regulatory perspective, the UK separating from the EU is particularly pertinent for the financial and investment management industry. So that's something which we're trying to figure out as the narrative changes each day, how those things are structured so we can carry out business. For what it's worth I don't know whether I should mention it on this interview, but I'll just be upfront. I did vote leave for the referendum and I think in hindsight I do feel as though I was duped to an extent as we saw the fallout of the campaign thereafter. I had my personal reasons for making that decision as well, but economically, whilst it will benefit areas of the economy, I believe very strongly it will also, I think, crimp growth and that's what we're seeing now, but the worst thing for markets, regardless of which side of the fence you're on, or which decision you make, investors hate uncertainty. You can plan for a bad outcome, you can plan for or position for a good outcome, but you cannot do anything with uncertainty.

Michael McCarthy: Are you expecting for the volatility? Or bouts of volatility?

James Helliwell: Yeah. Yeah. I expect a continuation of what we've seeing because there's still no resolution. There's no clear path. So I expect that there will be a continuation. I have no real confidence in the UK government, the UK parliament, and the EU, really sorting this out in time. So I think it will be quite a disorderly exit in March 2019, which isn't that far away now. So yeah, not to be too gloomy, things will change, volatility creates opportunity of course. Not too helpful for the process at least.

Michael McCarthy: Well, thank you for your thoughts on Brexit. It's interesting to hear what the man on the ground or the trader on the ground has to say. So James what are you looking at next? Where's the next big opportunity?

James Helliwell: So first of all, medical marijuana is huge and that for me is number one, but behind that I think closely Blockchain. Perhaps in scale it could be even greater, it could be as significant as the internet basically in terms of how it changes industries and how we operate. I think with Blockchain it will be its application in particular areas such as healthcare. So biotechnology for example, that's where the most I think inspiring opportunity and potential is, those are the areas that I'm focusing on. And also I think finally the biggest opportunity is in optimism right now long-term, because the market rewards optimism over the long run and it's very easy to get a think cynical, to be cynical and be pessimistic, to be sceptical. And you know what I think over the long run the biggest opportunity right now, particularly as a millennial, is to be optimistic because everybody's written off millennials as consumers, etcetera. But I see so many opportunities, they're about to go into home formation… families, mortgages, all the rest, all the usual stuff that normally would have been done five or 10 years ago. So yeah, I would just say be optimistic, be hopeful, there's not a lot of people who are invested in that. So that for me is also big opportunities to just be optimistic and to go after it, to learn to throw yourself into opportunities like this and to enjoy the ride.

Michael McCarthy: Well James, I see our time is coming to an end, been an absolute pleasure to be at this end James. Many thanks to you for all those insights.

James Helliwell: Thank you very much for having me on. I'd love to do this again sometime and yeah, it's been my pleasure to be with you.

Michael McCarthy: That was James Helliwell. We'll put a link to his website in our show notes. For previous episodes of The Artful Trader and for more information about CMC Markets, head to our website, theartfultraderpodcast.com where you can also access some limited time offers. Don't miss an episode. Subscribe free in your favourite Podcast App. The Artful Trader is an original podcast series by CMC Markets, a global leader in online trading, and the information in this podcast is general in nature and does not speak to your personal financial situation. I'm Michael McCarthy. Thanks for listening. This is The Artful Trader.